訪談 ｜ 楊軒 海若鏡

文 ｜ 楊軒

Byran Johnson，可能是全球最快成名的抗衰達人。他身上有很多標簽：硅谷抗衰富豪、永生科技狂人、"姨化吸血鬼"、"試藥小白鼠"、"天山童姥"等等。

在眾多渴望長壽的科技新貴中，Bryan不一定是氪金投資最多的，但他應該是對自己最狠的。為了抗衰逆齡，他遵從著"苦行僧"般的作息：每晚8點半睡覺、早4點半起床；每天攝入卡路里低于2000大卡，過午不食；每周運動7天。除了每天吃下幾十粒保健品，他還嘗試了一系列監管尚未批準的前沿科技：換血、注射干細胞、基因療法等。

從2021年啟動計劃至今，47歲的他每年氪金200萬美元，宣稱已將生理年齡追回了5.1歲，自己的衰老速度已經降低至0.48，相當于一年只老去6個月。他還公布了自己多項生物標志物數據，比如睡前靜息心率44次/分，夜間勃起時長超過3小時，臥推110公斤......

如今，"Don’t die不死"和"逆轉年齡"，已經成為他的第一目標和使命。

這種執著，在商場或技術精進上，會被認為是一種極端理性和上進；但施加在自己的身體上，卻會讓人覺得是有違天理的"瘋狂"。一路圍觀他抗衰試驗的網友們，熱衷于預測他的死亡方式："如果他死于癌癥，一切將成奇觀"，"有一天，他會被西蘭花噎死。"

調侃之外，其實這位"抗衰急先鋒"在全球已經擁有了相當多的追隨者，他們渴望活得更久、更有活力，愿意模仿Byran的清規戒律。其中就包括一位來自中國的富二代，他正嘗試和Bryan合作，在中國北京、重慶開辦兩家長壽診所。

Bryan Johnson這位自述凈資產幾億美金的硅谷富豪，為什么如此執著于不死（Don’t Die），若怕死，又為何嘗試那么多"危險療法"？近日，36氪訪談了這位世界級網紅，嘗試尋找"永生哥"宏偉藍圖里的隱藏副本。

回到故事最初

楊軒：你身上有很多的標簽（社交媒體上常見的有抗衰狂人、姨化吸血鬼、試藥小白鼠等），你自己最喜歡的三個是什么？

Bryan Johnson：我是一名逆齡運動員。我是最早邁入"不死"時代的人類之一。我是一名父親。

[I am a rejuvenation athlete. I am one of the first Homo Sapiens, Well, the first humans that entered into the new era of Don't Die. And I am a father.]

楊軒：先回到故事最初。你說過Don't die這個項目是跟你當年創業的時候抑郁，甚至試圖自殺的經歷有關，但是你其實2013年就已經賣掉公司給paypal了，距離你開始長生項目，中間其實有八年的時間。這八年間發生了什么？

Bryan Johnson：我21歲的時候從厄瓜多爾回來，在那邊和極度貧困的人們一起生活了兩年。回到美國后，我感到很幸運。因為我們有充足的食物、有房子、有醫療、有厄瓜多爾人所沒有的生活基本保障——厄瓜多爾人還住在大家泥土地板、泥巴頂的棚屋里。回到美國后，我內心難以抑制地渴望過一種對他人有用的人生，因為他們不像我這么幸運。但當時的我還不知道做什么。所以我決定創業，在30歲之前賺很多很多錢，然后用這些錢再搞清楚人生要做什么。我34歲時以接近十億美元賣掉了我的公司，達成了20歲時定下的目標，接下來真正的問題是：我終于有了錢，現在該做什么？

[When I was 21 years old, I have, I just returned from Ecuador where I had lived for two years among extreme poverty. And I came back to the United States, and I felt fortunate. That we had sufficient food, we had a home, we had medical care, we had life basics that the people in Ecuador did not. I was living among people who were there with dirt floors.And mud huts.And when I came back to the United States, I felt a overwhelming desire to try to spend my life in a way that would be useful to other people. To give other people opportunities of life. When they weren't as fortunate as I was to be born into a place that had basic needs met. And in that moment, I decided that I wanted to spend my life doing something useful for others, but I didn't know what to do. And so I decided that I would become an entrepreneur. And make a whole bunch of money by age。And then with that money, at age 30, I would try to figure out what to do. And so I sold my company when I was 34 years old for 100 million. And so I achieved my goal.That I had set when I was 20 years old.And then the question was real, now that I finally had money, what do you do? And I did two things. ]

我做了兩件事。一個是我認為未來世界的關鍵在于，我們是否能重構生物和物理世界，包括原子和分子層面。因為我沒有科學方面的教育背景，所以我想盡可能地學習關于生物學、材料科學、化學……所有這些硬科學。所以我投資了1億美元到一些做合成生物學、基因組學、納米技術、計算治療的公司。我和許多博士學歷的創始人一起深入科學探索。這對我來說是非常寶貴的科學教育。

我2015年時又意識到人類需要進化自己，所以我的第二個想法是：我們能否更深入了解人腦？并基于此，來獲得更好的治療方法，比如幫助認知能力衰退的人？并通過人工智能幫、我們學習得更快更好？于是我投資了6400萬美元辦了一家腦機接口公司，做了一個腦機接口頭盔，我每天都用。站在這些的基礎上，我學到了關于科學、大腦、測量的很多東西。

[One is I thought.I think the world is going to be defined by our ability to engineer biology and the physical world, including atoms and molecules. And I wanted, because I didn't have an education in the sciences, I wanted to learn everything I could about biology and material science and chemistry and physics.And all the hard sciences. So I invested $100 million into companies that were doing things like synthetic biology, genomics, nanotechnology, computational therapeutics. And in doing that, I worked with many PhD founders in the trenches pursuing scientific endeavors. I did that for several years.And it was a very useful education for me to learn about the hard science is a biology and you know, physics and all the fields I mentioned. And then I did that for a few years.And then I imagine that it might be useful if we, as you get, guess this is in 2015 where there was starting to be discussions about AI and AI's potential impact on the world.And I thought that it might be important for the human race to try to evolve ourselves with AI in a way that would allow us to improve our own intelligence and awareness and abilities.And I wanted to build a brain interface company.And so I started a company and we, over the next seven years, we built a basically a wearable fmri interface. See, it's a little, actually have it here with me. I'll show it to you.Great.We built this brain interface. I now use it every day on my own brain.Every day. I do. Yep.It's one of the most advanced brain interfaces in the whole world, where you bring a really powerful brain interface in your home and you can measure your brain's biological age, you can measure early cognitive decline, you can measure even predicting things like will a person respond to a depression treatment.So that was the second idea I had, was, can we learn more about the human brain? Can we use it to have better therapies.To help people with cognitive decline? And could it help us? Learn faster and better with AI. And so those are my first two endeavors and investing in the hard sciences.The hard sciences. And then two is building a brain interface. In the brain interface, I invested $64 million to build that company. And then on the hills of that, I was learning a lot of things about science and about the brain and about measurement.]

但我不確定，當下所為是否最優解？于是構建了一個思想實驗——假想站在公元2500年回望：當翻閱21世紀史冊，他們會如何定義這個時代？

一個世紀最終只會被簡化為兩三件里程碑。正如我們今日評價過往。我猜兩件事會被載入史冊的坐標：一，類孕育了超級智能；二，死亡被重新定義為可攻克的技術命題。這不意味永生，而是壽命延長成為清晰的技術路徑：人類將壽命預期從70-100歲，持續推至150歲、180歲、250歲…直至終點不可測。

基于此，我決心成為新紀元首個"不死"實驗者。雖然歷史上無數追尋青春之泉者終成枯骨，但我將向世界展示："不死"是可復制的科學行動。

[And I did this specific thought experiment where I was, again, I wasn't quite satisfied that I had figured out the right thing to do with my time and resources, and I did this thought experiment where I imagined being present a few hundred years from now in the year 2,500. So if we imagine that humanity continues to improve itself at a certain rate, in a few hundred years, it may be the case that whatever intelligence exists in that point is incomprehensible to us in many ways. And I imagined they were speaking amongst themselves. And they were looking back in the history books about what happened in the early 21st century, the time that we live right now, and what would they say about our entire century? And I imagine they would might, they might think about us in the same way.We think about the third century or the second century, where we look at a hundred year timeframe.And we generalize and say, you know, these two or three big events happened and we just kind of brush over all other details of that century.Even though there were millions of people who lived rich and important lives on many fronts. And I wondered how, what would they say about this century? And I thought they would say two things. One, they would say that's.When. Humans gave birth to super intelligence in AI. And 2 is that's when humans figured out that they were no longer.Going to die.Now, that does not mean immortality. It just means that humans saw it was very clear that with advanced technologies, with AI, that they would probably be able to slowly begin extending their lifespans so that they no longer imagine a 70 or 80 or 90 or 100 year lifespan. They started to imagine 150 and then one, 80 and then 210, and then two, 50 and then 300, or a point where it's like, we don't know anymore when it's going to end. It just, we keep on getting better at this process of slowing down and reversing our aging damage. And so with that, I concluded that I would try to be the first human, if a human, ever, to tryto not die in this new world with AI. Now, of course, many people throughout history have pursued the fountain of youth. They've tried many things, and usually they've died. Ironically.And so I went about this project and I thought this would be a good focus on my effort to try to introduce to the world.A scientific methodology process on how a human could approach trying to not die.]

楊軒：你這個長生計劃，到底是個人需求，還是從一開始就定位成面向大眾的大項目？

Bryan Johnson：我想傳遞的核心是：人類正處在特殊的歷史節點。但普通人很難理解這點，所以得用更直白的方法。我做了兩件事：第一，把自己變成探索案例：組建醫學團隊，篩查科學文獻證據，找出最佳的長壽飲食、營養和運動方案——我自己先執行。

第二，免費公開所有結果：什么方法有效、什么無效，全部共享。

這背后有我創業期的切身之痛：整整十五年，從沒人對我說"Bryan，睡眠、運動和飲食是根基"。這個行業鼓勵你少睡覺、多加班，并以此為榮。所以現在我既是在做科學實驗，也是在扮演當年自己需要的那個提醒者。

[ I'm, I was trying to communicate this bigger idea that we are at this really special moment as a species.But I knew that people wouldn't understand that people needed a different message to understand what I was doing.And so I thought I would do two things. One is I would make myself the explorer. And so I hired a team of doctors and we went through the scientific literature, we reviewed the scientific evidence. We then identified the diet and nutrition and exercise that proved to be the best for longevity. And I implemented that. Then I started sharing my results with everybody for free. So I'd share what things worked, which things didn't work.And then I started to try to be a positive influence in people's lives. Because when I was an entrepreneur and any other part of my life, I never had a single person in my life that encouraged me to go to bed on time. Yeah, it was always as entrepreneur, you were encouraged to work longer and to sleep less and to be brave about it and brag about it. I didn't have anybody in my life that was saying, Bryan, it's really important to sleep well and to exercise and eat well. So I started to try to play that role. So it was both do the scientific experimentation for myself and then also try to be a positive role in everybody else's life.]

楊軒：如果再創一次業，你會早點睡嗎？

Bryan Johnson：會。我會把睡眠作為我的第一要務，并且會因此更成功。少睡覺能造就成功——這種觀念是絕對錯誤的。人類需要高質量的睡眠才能正常運作。

[Yeah, if I started BrainTree again in the year of 2007.I would make sleep my number one priority. I think that if I would have done that, I would have built a better company. I think I would have been more successful.I think the idea that getting less sleep create more successful people is incorrect.The science shows that we need high quality sleep to function properly in life.]

楊軒：硅谷有追求永生的潮流。比如Google 的兩位創始人創辦了抗衰老的公司、貝索斯投資30億美元建立細胞再生公司、奧特曼投生物科技公司。但你的切入方式很不一樣：你把自己展示出來，并把身體指標量化。為什么用這個角度切入抗衰這個潮流？

Bryan Johnson：在我看來顯而易見：健康缺個硬指標。你看百米冠軍是誰、首富有多少錢，全能量化成數字。但人聊健康時呢？只剩故事和傳言。我入場時就問：能不能像測跑步速度那樣測健康？于是我干了幾件事：公布60多個生物標志物（是全因死亡率的核心指標）；甩出12個月實驗室數據記錄。

我的目標從來不是當第一，而是給大家引路——證明普通人按這套測量+科學驗證的流程，就能達到頂尖健康狀態。

[One of the ideas that seemed apparently when I started was that when somebody speaks about health.There's no quantitative way to speak about it.It's typically spoken about in stories. Or anecdotes, but it's not like it's a measurable thing. Like who is the world's fastest person in the 100 meter dash or who is the richest person in the world? Who has, you know, the most money in a bank account? And so what I wondered.Is there a way for me to become the healthiest person in the world and to do so quantitatively? And this would introduce to the idea to a world, the world that health can, in fact be measured and biological age can in fact be measured. And so I've, I have shared a few weeks ago, I shared over 60 biomarkers that are predictive of all cause mortality of longevity, and I shared 12 months of historical data of these measurements. And I also shared my actual lab results. So my goal is not to be No. 1. My goal is to help other people become No. 1 as well. Because then you show a process that works, that when you measure somebody's body and you apply scientific evidence, that they, too, can achieve remarkable health stats. And so my goal really is to help everyone achieve this biomarkers.]

楊軒：科技領域里，手機公司習慣"不服跑個分"，AI大模型拼競賽排名——你這套健康量化體系，靈感就來自硅谷科技業的這種數據崇拜嗎？

Bryan Johnson：完全正確。人類最熱衷追逐可測量的圣杯。想想社交媒體：粉絲數、瀏覽量就是權力勛章。健康領域的問題在于：當所有努力無法變成可比較的數字，人就失去進步動力。我的解決方案很簡單：讓健康成為可攀登的排行榜。當改善身體指標能提升你的"段位"，行動就自帶引擎。

[ Yes, that's exactly right. If you look. At the systems that invite humans to be the most enthusiastic in pursuit, its things that people can count.So if you think about social media, people understand that in terms of a number of followers number of views. So people love numbers, they love status, and they love rank. And so the question was simply, how can you make health something. That bestows rank and status? Because otherwise, a person may not be motivated to improve their health. But if they know that they could actually be viewed by other people to have a higher status, it's a very positive thing.So for society that, you know, when when you're when you're trying to create a community of people that are trying to be good at a certain thing. And if we want people to be motivated to do good things, having numbers behind this is a very positive motivator.]

海若鏡：作為醫療觀察者，我好奇：抗衰奧運會的評價體系有共識嗎？業內對您這些生物標志物指標是否存在質疑？

Bryan Johnson：這正是癥結所在。我2020年啟動這個項目時看到：專家在每件事上都在打架。一個人想健康作息，查書、問專家、聽播客——能收到十幾種矛盾方案。我的解法很硬核：跳過主觀爭論，直接錨定數據。舉個極致案例：放90歲老人和2歲幼兒在一起，誰都能分辨年齡差異——這說明健康本就可被皮膚狀態、行動能力等指標量化。當專家再爭吵時，我只問："你的血糖數據是多少？科學證明這指標關聯全因死亡率——請用同樣標準說話。"他們永遠吵不完，但要求反對者公布可比數據，就能把虛無爭論變成具體技術對標。這就是我公開全部生物標志物的原因。

[ Yes, of course. So this was one of the things that we were trying to address is that when I started.Blueprint. Don't die in 2020, in 2021. What I saw was that.Everybody disagreed with everyone about everything. And that's very challenging for somebody if a person wants to become healthy, if they want to have a good diet with good nutrition and they want to exercise and they want to sleep well. And then they go out and then read books and listen to podcasts and speak to experts. Everybody is going to tell them different things. And so what I wanted to say is, wouldn't it be great if we moved beyond human opinion and we just looked at the data? So at the very, at a very basic level. If you had a person who's 90 years old next to a person that is two years old and you ask somebody who's 90 and who's two, everyone, everybody is going to get it right. You're not going to confuse a 90 year old as someone who's 2. And so we know intuitively that bilateral age can be deduced by the quality of someone's skin, by their mobility, by all these different markers of the body.And you could begin making it a quantitative endeavor. So that way when experts disagree, you can just point the data and say this is my blood glucose level. This is what the evidence says about how blood glucose levels predict all cause.Mortality. And so it's never going to be the case that health authorities or experts will agree, they will always disagree. And what I've tried to do is reduce that con, try to create a conversation where that conversation is based upon data and not storytelling. In that way, it's a much more positive, constructive conversation.And this is why I've shared all my biomarkers. Of course, I have many people who disagree with my approach. I, there's many people who think they know how to do it better. And my response to them is share your biomarkers. So if you disagree with me, you do your protocol, you implement your health practices and then share your biomarkers and let's see, are they better than mine or are they not? And that way it becomes very practical and very tangible. Otherwise, people feel very confused.]

抗衰落地教程

楊軒：大家最想向你詢問怎么能夠"Don't die"，其實你也多次講過，最重要是三件事：第一是睡眠，第二是吃的好，第三是鍛煉，以及停止不健康的生活方式（抽煙、喝酒等）。因為你嘗試了太多的前沿抗衰科技，這"基礎三件套"的效果在你的整體抗衰效果里能占幾成？

Bryan Johnson：80%。大家總問我怎么能簡化，那么我可以簡化成一個核心指標：睡前靜息心率。

具體來說：先測量，你可以戴手環直接看數據，或手指壓住脖子血管數6秒心跳×10；如果你今晚躺平放松后測出60次/分，這是你的基準線，那么你就要爭取降到55次/分。

我發現幾件事會顯著影響心率：第一，晚餐時間。比如你晚上10點睡就6點吃。但我會提前8小時禁食，現在睡前心率穩在44次/分。但我要是拖到睡前一小時吃東西？直接飆到60次/分。

第二，放松緩沖。別妄想9:59關電腦，10點就能睡著。得給大腦"關機儀式"——把煩心事寫紙上、深呼吸，讓大腦清空。

第三，酒精警報。睡前來一杯，心率直接飆升。

為什么盯死睡前心率？因為睡前心率上漲會毀掉你的睡眠；睡得不好，第二天運動計劃大概率泡湯；不在狀態，垃圾食品誘惑指數飆升。

控制它，就等于給生活裝上了自律引擎。

[Probably,80% Well.And I would even say for those listening that want even more practical.Advice. I would share this, that if I try to distill everything I've Learned into one biomarker. because people always ask me, okay, Bryan, what you do is.Cool.But also it's complicated. Can you please make it easy for me? This is how I would make it easy. I would say that the very best thing for somebody to focus on is the resting heart rate before bed.And so if a person has a wearable, they can see the resting heart rate through the wearable or they can just put their fingers on the side of their neck and take their pulse to count heartbeats for six seconds and then time that by 10.So let's say you, so when you lay down to go to sleep tonight, when your head hits a pillow. Take a few breaths and calm yourself down. Yourself down.And then take your pulse or look at your wearable. And see what your resting heart rate is. Let's say it's 60 beats per minute. Your goal is to now lower your resting heart rate to 55 beats per minute. Try to drop it five beats per minute. And what you're gonna find is there's a few things that significantly affect your heart rate. One is it's better to eat your final meal of the day earlier. So if your bedtime is at 10 PM, it's best to be finished eating by around 6 PM or so. I eat my final meal of the day eight hours before I go to bed because it allows my body to digest the food and be finished. So when I put my head on the pillow, my arresting heart rate is 44 beats per minute. When it's 44 beats per minute, I'm gonna have a perfect night sleep.If I eat close to my bedtime, an hour before my bedtime, my heart rate will be around 60 beats per minute and it's going to ruin about 30 to 40% of my sleep. People are also going to find that if your bedtime is ten PM, for example, that you can't just work until 9:59 and then put your head on the pillow. You need to calm your body and mind down. You need to rest from the data activities. You need to maybe journal down some things you're worried about or stressed about. So wind down routine. People are also going to learn that if you drink alcohol close to bed, that's also going to raise your heart rate. And so the reason why I talk about heart rate is it's your best accountability partner in life. Now, you know if anything you do that increases your heart rate before bed is going to ruin your sleep. And when your sleep is ruined, it ruins exercise the next day because you don't feel motivated. And then when you don't feel motivated, you're going to eat bad food. So this one marker really helps people establish life habits that bring their entire life into alignment.]

楊軒：但很多普通人會說：Bryan，你講的都對，可抗衰是你的全職工作！我們被生活撕扯到意志力歸零，根本學不來這種自律——普通人該如何踐行你說的這些方法？

Bryan Johnson：但我的真實生活是，擔任三個公司的CEO，一睜開眼就開始工作。我從沒這么忙過，也從沒面對過這么多壓力。

所以，最重要的是創造一個"體系"。比如，如果你是"996"，那么9點下班，就盡量在11點睡覺，睡8小時，早上7點醒來，可以鍛煉一下，9點去上班。——關鍵是要養成生活習慣，而不是事到臨頭臨時決策。

以及996其實是一個文化習慣，而大家會相互模仿。所以應該改變文化，讓11點上床睡覺變成一件很酷的事情。

[ I actually have 4 full time jobs. I am the CEO of three different endeavors. So a lot of people think that I spend my entire day on anti aging. That's just not true. I work from the moment I get up. In my mind, I'm working. I do, of course, exercise. I do eat well. I do several doctor's appointments every week. I do various therapies. But no, my life, I have never been busier in my entire life. And I've also never had more stress.So it's not the case that my world is just easy and breezy and I spend all my time doing it. I have a very challenging life. And so I'd say for other people, the most important thing is to create life systems. So for example, if your bedtime, say you, you, I think in China it's 9,9,7. Is that right? So I would say the parallel would be 11,11,7.So if you finish work at 9 PM.Then try to be in bed by eleven PM that gives you two hours to get home, you know, get ready for bed and then sleep eight hours. So you wake up at 7, you could exercise a little bit and then be.At work at 9.And in doing so, it just requires having life systems where you say you're going to eat at a certain time of day, you're going to go to bed at a certain time of day, you're not going to drink alcohol because you know it's bad for you. So I would say it really is about making life habits and not trying to decide things in the moment. And really importantly is these are just cultural habits.Oftentimes.Most people do what other people do. If it's going to sleep at eleven PM becomes the norm, other people going to sleep at eleven PM. So we really much are, we really are a humans copy other people's behavior. And so the goal here is to change culture so that it is cool.And okay for people to go to bed on time and get high quality sleep.]

楊軒：說到文化影響，你提過一個尖銳現實：滿街食品廣告轟炸下，你以為自己在決定吃什么，其實是被商業機器洗腦。（此外，現代人刷手機成癮，很難放下手機早睡）。普通人的意志力在系統化營銷（以及算法的支配）前不堪一擊——對這種困局，有解法嗎？

Bryan Johnson：我建了幾個互助群。比如有個糖癮小組，但成員壓力大就忍不住深夜吃糖，屢戒屢敗。于是設立了一條游戲規則：破戒者必須拍照發群——吃了兩塊餅干還是十塊，都得亮出來。這就融合了責任感、社交性、安全感。掙扎的時候，分享出來。作出正確決策很難，但跟其他人一起會變得容易。

[I'm in several chat groups. With friends that are going to this same situation now, where, for example, in one chat group, it's a bunch of people who feel addicted to sugar.But they have a very hard time skipping sugar. They eat sugar when they're stressed. They eat sugar late at night. And so I made it a fun game where now if anybody eats sugar, they have to post a picture in the group what they ate. Now when they do that, of course, there is a certain amount of accountability that you don't necessarily want to be the person that is sharing with a group that you just ate two cookies or 10 cookies, but everyone has agreed to be completely honest.And that kind of thing makes it fun. It makes it accountable, it makes it social and it makes it safe to share that when people are struggling with a certain thing that it's okay. That's what it means to be human and nobody's gonna be perfect and that's okay. But they're not alone and they can improve themselves by going through this process. So it really is about accountability, community, friendship and a safe place to be open. That eating well is very hard and that making good decisions is very hard, but having other people to do it with makes it so much easier.]

楊軒：所以人類需要社群支持……還有個好奇點：你說"Don't die"時，和主流的"抗衰"（anti-aging），是一回事嗎？

Bryan Johnson：很多人批評"Don't Die"這個詞太消極，問我為什么不叫"活得好"。但"不要死"藏著更深的觀察：當AI進化速度超越人類理解時，活下去是跨國家、跨信仰的最大公約數——中國人不想今早死，美國人也不想，沒誰盼著明天斷氣。

這不是在鼓吹永生，而是因為大家對"活得好"、"長壽"的看法都有分歧，但"別今天就死"所有人都認同。這才是最底層的合作基石——"不要死"的說法，是為了讓每個人都合作起來，無論來自哪里。

[ I a lot of times when I say don't die, people will say, Bryan, that is so negative. Why are you being negative? Why don't you say something more positive like live well or live long? And the reason why I say don't die is because I'm trying to make this larger observation that AI is moving very fast, and it's moving faster than I think we are able to understand. And we have this really important question as a species, not just the Chinese, not just the Americans, not, not, no. It's like all of humanity, everybody on this planet. We have a shared interest. That things don't go poorly. We don't want things go wrong. I think we all want to live.And so what I'm trying to observe or say in the statement is that the one thing that every human on the planet has in common, everybody, no matter your religious background, no matter your national identity, nobody wants to die right now. That is something we share in common, that we do want to lve for tomorrow, that we have things going on tomorrow. And so Don’t Die is an approach to try to say we can cooperate, we can get along. There is something. Now, don't die is not live forever. I'm not arguing for immortality. I'm just saying that in this moment, every human on this planet wants to live for the next moment because we have things going on tomorrow. And so it actually draws in contrast because most ideologies or ideas or statements typically say, I have a thing I'll, I have a thing I want you to do. And if you don't do it, we may go to war with each other.And don't die is actually a statement that includes everybody. And so don't die is trying to create cooperation among everybody, no matter where they come from.]

楊軒：所以它是一個連接所有人的口號。

Bryan Johnson：對。每個人對"活得好"有不同理解。當人們意見不合時，通常會互相爭斗。所以這個說法是為了減少人類之間的分歧。

[Yeah, and also I'd say that if you say "live well".Well, everybody has a different understanding of what live well means. And when people disagree about something, they typically fight each other. And sometimes that leads to war. Friends don't die. There's just one meaning - Don't Die.And so you're, what it's really trying to do is reduce disagreements among humans, is trying to find the most commonality. And in any statement in the affirmative of live well, live long, it creates a opening for humans to disagree with each other. What that means, which then leads humans to typically fight about those ideas.]

楊軒：醫學界似乎正在形成一種共識是：攻克心血管病、腦部疾病、癌癥這三大關卡，人類就能活過百歲。雖然都意在長壽，但這種攻克疾病的路徑，跟你以"抗衰"為主的路徑似乎不同？

Bryan Johnson：這些說法都很明智。而我預防這些疾病的解法是：直接擰慢衰老時鐘。

每人都有個表觀遺傳時鐘（像車速表顯示衰老速率），我啟動項目時的衰老速率是1.0（正常值），現在壓到了0.54——相當于衰老速度砍半。

你老得越慢，器官的損傷也越小。正因如此，我才發起"逆齡奧林匹克"。大家想要的不是單純活到100歲，而是百歲時擁有50歲的身體機能。

[Yeah, I think that is those are that those are wise statements. And so one way to prevent those diseases from happening is to slow down your speed of aging. So inside each one of us, we have a clock. We have an epigenetic clock that tells us how fast or how slow we're aging. When I started this project, I was aging at a normal speed, let's just call it one. And over the past few years, I've demonstrated that I've been able to slow it out, my speed of aging to around point five four.So about half the speed. Now when you're aging more slowly, your organs have less aging damage. Your body breaks down not as fast.And so one way we can achieve those goals is to slow down our speed of aging. And this is where I created the Rejuvenation Olympics.Where I was inviting people to experiment with various therapies and protocols to say what things slow down one speed of aging the most. Because what you really want is you want to be 100 years old.But biologically you want to be 50 years old. You want your heart to structurally be like a 50 year old and functionally be like a 50 year old if you go and slow down how fast you age. So you want to have the biology of a 50 year old, even though you're actually 100. So that's one area we focused on of how do you actually slow down the biological aging process and how do you measure that in a systematic way.]

海若鏡：醫學研究通常要控制變量，測試單一療法，可你卻同時使用多種補劑和療法——如何判斷其中哪些真正有效？哪些可能安全但無效？

Bryan Johnson：我們設計過對照實驗，最近的高壓氧療法測試就是典型：先研究文獻，鎖定幾個核心觀測項（包括增加血管生長的VEGF、菌群、炎癥標志物），然后做了60多次實驗并測量。治療后復測，我的數據與文獻記載基本吻合。

這雖達不到隨機對照試驗這種科學金標準，但是也有科學準確性，其他人也可重復試驗。我其實是想為大眾引入一個概念：測量生物標志物是做出正確決策的最快路徑，而不是聽故事。按時睡覺、飲食健康、鍛煉身體是件值得稱贊的事。

有時候科學家會誤解這一點，他們以為我在做隨機對照組研究，但其實我不是。我其實是在試圖改變我們實際看待健康的文化。

[So with my protocol.We try to do controlled experiments. So we recently completed this with hyperbaric oxygen therapy, where we went through the scientific literature and we identified what we could find hyperbaric changed. So for example, one thing that it changes is that it increases something called VEGF.Which increases vascularization. And also we found evidence that it increases, it changes the microbial. We also found evidence that it changes systematic inflammation in the biomarker known as high sensitivity CRP. And so what we did is we measured these biomarkers in my body. We took like 60+ measurements and we said, here's the baseline measurement of where my body is at along these markers. And now we're going to do 60 sessions with hyperbaric oxygen therapy at 90 minutes with 2 atmosphere with 100% oxygen. And then after this therapy, we're gonna measure ourselves with the same things and we're gonna say, what changed? Now, we just completed that experiment and we got the results back. And if you look at the scientific evidence, you see that the changes that were made in me, we're not too dissimilar from what you see in the scientific literature. So in, through this experiment, we're able to isolate a therapy that does a given thing and then measure those effects inside my body. Now, is it perfect? No. But is it helpful? Yes. Is it scientifically accurate? Yes. Can other people repeat that same experiment? Yes. Can they do the measurements and protocol and the outcome? Yes. So what we're trying to do is, of course, there's a positive role in the world for people to do randomize control trials, to do RCTs, which are the gold standard way to do scientific evidence. That is wonderful. What I'm trying to do for people is to introduce the idea that the best thing to do is to measure your biomarkers.That is the fastest path to good decision making. Instead of telling stories.Measure your biomarkers and try to do so in some kind of controlled way. So I'm introducing the idea of the scientific method of measurement produces great results. But of course, many people who are doing control studies, that's also wonderful. And then I guess the other thing I'm trying to do is just change the culture around health. I'm trying to say it is a good idea. It is a cool idea. Somebody should be praised and receive higher status in society if they go to bed on time, if they eat well, on the exercise. So I'm really trying to do a, I'm trying to change the way the human race thinks about health. And sometimes scientists get that confused. They think I'm trying to do randomized control studies. I'm not. I'm trying to change the culture around how we actually approach our health.]

楊軒：你服用了大量補充劑（從每天100多片減至50片），是否有必要使用這么多？其中哪些真正有效，哪些可能無效？

Bryan Johnson：我在持續削減補充劑數量，現已降至約35種，未來還會更精簡。

沒有一種飲食方案能滿足人體所有營養需求。你應該先補充你缺的營養素，比如缺維生素D，可以補D或者曬太陽。最好是做基礎血液檢測一下。

但大家不用像我一樣，其實做好基本的事情——睡好、吃好、鍛煉，戒掉壞習慣——已經能達成80%的效果。

[We've tried to reduce the number of supplements. So I think I'm now down to even like, I think the latest count is around 35. So it's coming down more and more. So first, there is no diet that, there's no nutrition protocol that can get the body everything it needs to be healthy for the body to get everything and needs to be healthy, it needs supplementation. And so the first thing that a person should focus on is the things they're deficient in. So the best way to know that is to do a basic blood draw. So for example, if you get your blood results back and you find out that your vitamin d levels are low, then you could do several things to increase your vitamin d levels. You could potentially get more sun. You could take vitamin d supplementation. So you have action paths on doing that. And then let's say that all of your levels are okay, there's additional things that you need to supplement. And so what I've tried to do is identify the most basic things that everybody benefits from supplementation.And trying to keep that to as a low as a number of possible. But also, I try to be very clear that people don't need to do what I do.You can achieve, you know, as we discussed before, 80% of the benefits just by doing the basics of going to bed on time, getting high quality sleep, exercising and eating well and trying to avoid bad foods. Yeah, pet your junk food, bad habits, smoking, drinking junk food, like don't do those things.But yeah, I've really tried to keep it to the absolute basics. But yes, supplementation is necessary for ideal health. And everybody, you know, there are many things that I do that the Chinese do comment, like ginger is a part of my diet. So curcumin, garlic, for example. So there's many basic things that people can include in their life that either in the form of supplementation or foods. ]

楊軒：你吃的補充劑中既有常見類型，如維生素，也有較新的品種，例如NMN、免疫抑制劑和南非醉茄提取物。你親身體驗后，對這些新型補充劑的效果有何評價？

Bryan Johnson：我們篩選補充劑的核心標準是：基于最佳科學證據，且具備面向大眾的普適性。例如你提到的NMN——它隨年齡增長自然衰減，需要補充。其他新型補充劑同樣遵循這一邏輯。

[We identified these supplements as having the best scientific evidence that was appropriate for everybody. What we didn't want to do was to find something that would only be useful for a certain kind of person at a certain age. We wanted something that would be useful for everybody. So for example, you mentioned NMN, that naturally declines with age. And so if you want your cellular NAD levels to be high. Then you need to supplement over time. That's one example of a supplement that somebody would take that would elevate levels to where you were in a more useful state at the age 18. And the other things as well. So all of these supplements were identified based upon the scientific evidence as having robust evidence and good for a population level.]

楊軒：你認為檢測非常重要，你也做了很多檢測。普通人也應該像你一樣去做嗎？還是說市面上的常規體檢就夠了——血液檢測、尿液檢測、超聲、X光都囊括在常見的體檢項目里。

Bryan Johnson：不，這些（常規）檢測非常好。基本的血液檢查非常有用，這是多數人評估健康的最佳方式。你也可以做進階檢查，但即使每年只做一次血液檢查已經是巨大進步。

[No, I think those tests are great.A basic blood draw is really useful and that is the best way for most people to assess their health.Of course, people can do many more advanced things, but even getting an annual blood draw is a really positive step.]

抗衰的前沿試驗

楊軒：我們聊聊比較高科技的部分。你嘗試了一些在外界看來比較先進甚至激進的新方法，比如換血、干細胞治療，尤其是很多業內人都覺得有風險的基因療法。你完成這幾項之后，感受如何？

Bryan Johnson：我想先澄清一下，我接受的基因療法其實并不是真正意義上的基因編輯。它只是輕微地提升了血液中一種叫 follistatin 的蛋白質表達水平。這并不涉及 DNA 的改變。大多數人理解的基因療法，是像 CRISPR 這樣的基因編輯技術，而我做的遠沒有那么復雜。

我所做的一切治療都非常安全。比如說輸血，在美國每天就有幾百萬次，人與人之間交換生物物質是非常常見的。我們盡可能依賴科學證據做決策，避免做任何額外風險。

[Well, to clarify on the gene therapy, it didn't actually change my DNA. It was a very lightweight. It was basically what's called a plasma that just increase the expression levels of a protein called folostat. So it almost doesn't even qualify as a gene therapy in the fact that most people think gene therapy, they think of things like Crisper. Or you're actually editing the genome. So it was very lightweight.And I would say also that the therapies I've done have been very safe. So we do a lot of work to make sure that anything we do is safe. For example, on the plasma, you know, those in the United States alone, there's several million done, you know, blood transfusions done per day. It's a very common thing to exchange biology between humans. So we do try to be very safe. We try to work only by the scientific evidence and we try to do, we try to never do anything that would create more risk.]

楊軒：在你嘗試的這么多項目中，有沒有哪些時刻、哪些項目是讓你感受有點危險、不會再去做的？

Bryan Johnson：其實沒有特別戲劇性的情況。但有一個意外：在抗衰領域，雷帕霉素曾是備受關注的藥物（它是一種服務器官移植的免疫抑制劑，但有幾項研究稱它能延長壽命）。我曾連續服用多年，并持續監測血液中的藥物濃度，確認劑量合理。后來停用了，因為它導致我的血糖、血脂指標異常，并引發了軟組織感染。

停藥一個月后，耶魯大學發布了一項研究，用16種表觀遺傳時鐘分析發現，雷帕霉素反而會加速衰老。

這既有趣又諷刺。作為追求"不死"的人，我竟然做了一件加速衰老的事。但我們對實驗結果保持坦誠，公開了整個過程和數據。這是目前我們遭遇的最大事件。

[Nothing that dramatic. I would say that one of the bigger surprises we had was in the anti aging community, a drug known as Rappa myson has been one of the more exciting drugs in the entire community, and I was taking rapison. It's used as an immune suppressant for people who are getting organ transplants. But then they, several scientific studies show that it had a positive effect on life extension. So I was taking Rapa Mason for several years. We extensively measured my blood levels to see if we were getting the dosage correct.And then we stop because it was complicating my blood glucose and my lipids and also causing soft tissue infections. And then after stopping, a month later, a paper came out from Yale University that showed that Rapper Myson actually increased the speed of aging using 16 epigenetic clocks. And so that was really surprising to us, that one of the most interesting drugs in the world for anti-aging was actually increasing my speed of aging. And so of course, on many levels, it's very funny because it's the don't die guy who's doing things to don't die and he finds out he's doing something that accelerates the speed of aging. So that is very funny and ironic. But also we are very open with our decisions. And so we made this public. We shared to everybody what we're doing and why it may be the case that Rap Mason is fine and that these clocks are not measuring the proper effect. That's the case. But I would say that's probably the biggest occurrence we've had, but there's not been anything close to life threatening. It's been more smaller things like that.]

楊軒：你的一些嘗試是未經 FDA 批準或非常前沿的療法。你的動力是什么？為什么會走到這么遠？

Bryan Johnson：我正在嘗試樹立一個安全試驗新療法的榜樣。在進行任何療法前，我們會做大量研究，審查所有科學證據，評估可能的副作用。同時全面測量我的身體指標，了解基線數據。這樣在實施療法后，就能觀察具體哪些指標發生了變化，以及背后的原因。

很多人會說："布萊恩，你太冒險了。"我會反問："你上次吃快餐是什么時候？"他們可能回答是昨天或兩三天前。這時我會說："其實你才是在做高風險行為——吃快餐的風險早已被科學證明有害健康。"

從科學角度看，許多人在健康上的冒險比我更大。

[I am. I'm trying to set an example of how to safely experiment with new therapies. And the way we're trying to do that is, we do a lot of research on the therapy before we do it. So we review all the scientific evidence, we look at all the possible side effects.And then we measure my body extensively. So we say we make sure we understand what all the markers are. And that way when we do the therapy, we can see which markers change and why.Now that is a really safe way to do something. I have to remind people that people oftentimes view what I'm doing and they say, Brian, you're really risky in what you're doing. And I say, when's the last time you had a fast food meal? And they'll say something like, you know, yesterday or a couple days ago. And I'll say, you're really doing high risk things in life. You're eating fast food. And the scientific literature shows that eating fast food is really bad for your health.So in many ways, people are doing are, people are more high risk with their health than I am because we are making very careful scientifically based decisions. Meanwhile, people are forgetting that eating bad food and being chronically sleep deprived and not exercising actually creates more risk for their health. Then I'm creating for my health through these various therapies.]

海若鏡：我們知道你試過注射間充質干細胞、輕量級基因療法等。目前是否有更前沿、正在嘗試但尚未公開的抗衰老新技術？

Bryan Johnson：我們最近啟動了一項滋養層外泌體療法。滋養層干細胞來源于胚胎發育早期的一些細胞，這些細胞會形成胎盤結構。我本人已接受這項療法數周。

[Yeah, we just started a therapy using trophoblast exercise.So these are some of the earliest trophoblast stem cells are some of the earliest cells develop in Latin embryo. And these specific cells formed alignment placenta. So we've been, I'm now several weeks into this therapy using the trophoblast exosomes, and the evidence behind them is interesting, and we think it's safe.And so this is probably, yeah, this is a more advanced therapy that is new.]

海若鏡：在諸多療法中，有哪些是讓你覺得效果特別立竿見影的？

Bryan Johnson：其實并沒有。這主要因為我健康狀態很好，身體指標已經優化到較高水平。但當我把這些療法用到我父親身上時，效果就很明顯。他七十多歲了，感覺有天壤之別，頭腦更清醒，精力更充沛，身體疼痛也減輕了。這說明療法效果可能與個體原有健康基礎密切相關。

[Actually, no.I know that oftentimes I will do therapies and I won't feel anything, but that's mostly because I'm in really good shape. I, you know, I mean, my health is very good. And so I just don't fill things very much. But I will say that what I introduce these things to my father's life. My father is now, you know, over 70 years old.And when he does these therapies, he feels a night and day difference. He feels more alert. He feels like he has more energy. His body hurts less. So I think it really is how a person, teir baseline of health. But yeah, sadly, I would like to feel more. I would like to really feel, you know, it boosted mental clarity. But right now my health is so optimized and I'm in such great health, it's very hard for me to subjectively feel anything.]

關于抗衰的生意和傳播

楊軒：我們聊聊商業部分吧。你是怎么讓這整個計劃運轉起來的？最初是從組建團隊開始的嗎？你怎么說服他們？還是只要出足夠高的價格，就可以組起一個團隊？

Bryan Johnson：確實是從團隊開始的。長壽醫學領域其實有很多醫生都想參與，人才并不缺，缺的是能讓他們用科學方法實踐長壽醫學的機會。

[Yeah, there are so many doctors in the world who want to pursue longevity medicine and are trying to find the opportunity to do so. It's such an interesting field with so much opportunity. And I think these doctors are trying to find the right opportunities to pursue it. So yeah, there's no shortage of people interested in pursuing longevity is there's just a shortage of opportunities where they can practice longevity, using robust scientific methods.]

楊軒：你之前提到抗衰每年要花200萬美元。這個預算是你自己設定的項目成本上限，還是實際花費剛好是這么多、其實沒有限額？資金分配是怎么規劃的？

Bryan Johnson：成本已經大幅下降了。最初確實很貴，因為我們在長壽領域投入了大量科學研究，還探索了各種生物數據測量方法，這確實很昂貴。但現在我們已經掌握了所有測量方式，科研流程也穩定了，整體成本降低很多。很多人看到媒體標題說我花了200萬美元，以為那是執行的費用，但那其實是包含了科研、驗證和測量的總成本。

實際執行的成本其實很低，甚至是免費的。比如按時睡覺不需要花錢，鍛煉可以散步或做日常運動。飲食健康雖然需要花點錢，但高質量食物的價格并非不可承受。

[Yeah, the cost is actually down quite a bit. Initially, it was expensive because we were doing a lot of research in across all the scientific evidence on longevity, and we were also figuring out all the ways to measure AI. I became the most measured person in history.I'm a more bioluxury measure than any human who's ever lived. And that was expensive. But now that we've really measured, we've, we figured out all those measurements, and we also have got a stability in the scientific evidence research process, the cost of the project are substantially lower. And so a lot of people, they see the headline that it's $2 million and they think that's what it costs. But that's the cost of the research, the science and the measurement.The actual protocol is actually very low cost, sometimes even free. For example, going to bed on time doesn't cost anything. And exercising doesn't cost anything either. You know, you can go for a walk. You can do various practices to exercise on a daily basis. You know, eating well, of course, that does cost some money. Higher quality foods can cost more. So, yeah, I think $2 million a year is now something that is no longer accurate. And also I think sometimes, it dissuades people from trying to do this because they think it's too complicated or too expensive. But actually it's very approachable.]

楊軒："一旦創過業，終身創業人"。當你啟動這個抗衰老項目時，有沒有從之前的創業經歷中借鑒？這次的項目和你以前創業有什么異同？

Bryan Johnson：好問題。我確實將自己視為一種"科技產品"。過去開發金融交易軟件時，我們會不斷迭代升級——從版本1到版本2再到版本3，持續優化。但現實中我的狀態卻截然不同：白天能建立穩定的IT系統，回家后卻總是失控。我會在高壓工作后暴飲暴食，吃掉大量餅干，接著失眠。這種分裂感讓我思考：為什么不能像建造技術系統一樣建造自己？為什么不能保持一致性？既然明知過量飲食有害，為何每天仍屈服于誘惑？

所以我開始建立生活習慣系統，用工程化思維規范自身行為。這套系統讓我變得可靠且可持續。很多人覺得我的生活方式像AI般機械，甚至問我："你活得還像個人嗎？"

但我人生中從未如此最快樂過。睡眠充足時的精神飽滿、運動后的通體舒暢、健康飲食帶來的活力——這些體驗遠比宿醉或垃圾食品更讓人愉悅。身體的健康最終會轉化為真實的幸福感，所有克制都物有所值。

[That's a great question and you are exactly right. It is the same thing where I think of myself as a form of technology, where when I was building my previous company, we were building software for the role of finance for transactions. And we, of course, would program the software and improve the software every day. So it would go from version 1 to version 2 to version 3, every version getting better.Meanwhile, I would go home after a stressed day and I would eat too much food and then I would have, you know, too many cookies and then I would sleep very well. And so it was just really weird situation where during the day I built a system of intelligence that was reliable and consistent. And then when I looked at my own behavior, I was unreliable and inconsistent, and I wondered, why can I not build myself in the same way I'm building technology? Why can't I be consistent and reliable? Why can't I say, I know that eating too much food is bad for me, therefore, I'm not going to do it. Why would I cave to the temptation every day? And so what I've been trying to do is trying to build life habits and systems that allow me to be consistent and reliable. And so a lot of people view what I'm doing, and they say, that doesn't seem like it's very fun. And, you know, are you an AI and are you not living life? And what I try to explain to them is I've never been happier in my entire life. That, you know, when you sleep really well, everybody knows what it feels like. You wake up and you feel amazing. Everybody knows what it feels like to exercise and you feel amazing. Everybody knows what I feel like to eat well.And we all know that drinking really heavily and waking up the next morning feels awful and eating bad food feels awful. And so what I try to explain is that you feel really happy when you're really healthy, it's really worth the decisions.]

楊軒：我記得你以前推銷信用卡時是銷售冠軍，當時有個技巧：你走進商店說"如果給我一分鐘談合作，這100塊就歸你"，原本想拒絕你的人就會笑笑，并給你聊聊的機會。現在做抗衰老計劃時，有沒有類似這種獨特的"技巧"？

Bryan Johnson：確實有類似的方法。我常建議人們嘗試：睡前一小時降低靜息心率，持續一周。包括把最后一餐提前到傍晚，睡前不吃零食；睡前一小時放松，可以做呼吸練習、冥想，或者給朋友打個輕松的電話，但都要保持平靜；咖啡因盡量只在白天早些時候攝入。堅持一周后告訴我——保持健康到底讓你快樂還是痛苦？

[Yes, I do that. That's a really good question. I invite them to lower their resting heart rate before bed for one week. I say.Take the suggestion of eat your final meal of the day earlier in the evening. Don't snack before bed.You know, have at least an hour before bed where you can wind down your body, in your mind, maybe do some breath work, some meditation, call a friend, but calm practices, you know, and have, if you're going to drink caffeine, to have it much earlier in the day, but not close to bedtime. Do that for a week and tell me if you think being healthy makes you happy or sad.]

楊軒：你可能是全世界傳播最成名的抗衰明星。你的故事很吸引眼球，以我看來，甚至曝光了太多隱私。比如你在YouTube最受歡迎的視頻是聊前未婚妻起訴你的事，播放量200多萬。你還公開過幾近裸體的照片和夜間勃起的性能力數據。你不會覺得暴露了太多隱私嗎？為什么要做到這種程度？

Bryan Johnson：我的遭遇其他人也會遭遇，但大家往往因害怕他人評價而沉默，最終陷入孤立無援。比如我前未婚妻曾試圖勒索900萬美元，威脅散布我的負面消息，除非付封口費。這在全球都很常見。多數人因害怕名譽受損選擇妥協，反而助長了惡意勒索的風氣。自從我公開這段經歷后，每周都有三四位來自世界各地的有權勢者聯系我，說他們也面臨類似威脅。

通過分享自己的故事，我希望能揭露這種普遍存在的社會病態現象。這對人類文明有害。我們應該建立誠信社會，而不是縱容謊言牟利。即使可能損害個人名譽，也要勇敢面對。至少需要有人率先推動這種觀念，哪怕因此付出代價。

[Because the experiences that I have in life are the experiences that other people have in life. And sometimes people keep those experiences quiet. They don't wanna share because they're scared about what other people will think of them. But then they find themselves in a lonely situation. And so, for example, when my ex fiancee, she attempted to extract $9 million from me, threatening to say really bad things about me if I didn't pay her. And that is a very common thing that happens to people all around the world. And in that situation, what most people do is they don't want bad things we said about them, and so they pay money. And what that does is it creates a really bad feedback loop where society learns that you can threaten somebody with power and money, that you're going to say bad things about them and you will get money from doing so. People learn that. Lawyers learn that. And then society creates a really bad habit for letting this happen.Now, there are, of course, situations where people have done bad things. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm saying when people are making things up and not telling the truth. And so since I shared that experience, I probably have three to four people per week around the world that are, you know, powerful, rich people reach out to me and they say, I'm in a similar situation as you. I have this person in my life. There's threatening to say, they're going to say all of these terrible things about me publicly unless I paid him this money and they want to talk to me about it. And so by me sharing these things publicly, I'm able to speak to something that is happening to many people all over the world. And I don't think this practice is ood for the human race. I think we want to be, have a society of trust. And I don't think we want these things to be happening in the shadows. So I'm trying to raise attention that there is honor in doing the right thing, that there's honor of servicing these things, even when it's potentially damaging to your reputation because at least a few of us have to do this to socialize this idea.]

Bryan Johnson：夜間勃起現象也是如此。這是男女都有的生理現象，也是重要的健康指標，男性喪失這個功能五年內死亡風險會增加70%。長期睡眠不足會直接導致這類功能關閉，而很多人卻以"每天只睡四五小時"為榮。實際上，只有約百萬分之一的人具備短睡眠基因。

公開分享這些事，才能引發大家討論那些禁忌的、隱藏在陰影中無人談論的話題——睡眠質量直接影響心理健康、心血管健康和生理機能。

我知道這些話題可能讓人不適，或引人嘲笑。但我想引發人們談論那些隱秘，但深刻影響生活的重大問題。

[ The same thing is true with nocturnal erections. This is a phenomena that both men and women experience. Women have night erections just like men. And so if a person, if a man is not having nocturnal erections, they are at risk of a 70% higher likelihood of death within five years. It's a really significant health risk. Now, one of the fastest ways to reduce nocturnal erection is to not get sleep, is to be chronically sleep deprived.And so what I'm trying to do here is if a person thinks that they're being a hero by not getting sleep, if they say to their friends and coworkers, I only need four hours of sleep a night or five hours. That's probably not true. Genetically, there's only one in. I think the number is something like one in a million have the genetic disposition where you only need four hours of sleep. Everybody else needs some longer duration of sleep. So what I'm trying to do is send my friends your , which is a critical part of your psychological, physical and cardiovascular health.Depends upon sleep. And if you don't sleep, your body shuts down critical functions like your nitty directions, which is a natural process of both men and women. And so by sharing these things publicly, I'm able to speak about topics that are otherwise taboo that. Stay in the shadows that nobody talks about. And so I understand that sometimes it's uncomfortable, sometimes people wanna laugh at it. That's okay. I'm allowing people to speak about really important things that dramatically affect their lives.]

楊軒：你為了推廣"Don’t Die"項目，真的做了很多。你成長于摩門教家庭，還曾做過兩年傳教士。你覺得這段經歷和現在的角色有相似之處嗎？

Bryan Johnson：有很多相似點。摩門教教導我重視品格、誠實、勤奮和社區精神——從他人身上汲取力量，共享信念是人類最強大的力量來源。這些價值觀至今影響著我。

但我與摩門教的分歧在于對來世的信仰。他們認為遵守戒律就能進入天堂獲得永生。而我無法證實天堂、來世是否存在。存在當然也很好，但我的核心信念是熱愛當下。我渴望活著。

無論相信輪回還是天堂，沒有人會為了轉世求死，也沒有人急著進天堂，我們都想活到明天。所以我提倡"don't die"的本質是：無論信仰什么，所有人都希望延續生命。我想在所有宗教、國家和文化中尋找這種共識。

建設社區刻在我的DNA里，而用超長期視角思考生命的能力，則是我從小培養的思維方式。

[Yeah, there's a lot of commonalities. I appreciate how I was raised, where we were taught that a character was important, that being honest is important. That working hard is important, that being in a community is important, that we draw strength from each other, that shared beliefs is one of the most powerful things we can do as a species. And, you know, where I depart from my Mormon upbringing is in that faith. They basically say if you obey God's commandments, you're going to get an afterlife. You're going to be in heaven. Now, I don't know if heaven exists. I don't know if an afterlife exists. I don't know how I could know that. If it does, that's wonderful. And what I'm saying is, what I do know is I really love to live in this life right now. I'd love to be alive. And even if somebody believes in an afterlife, that's great. If they believe enough in reincarnation, also wonderful. But nobody is dying to be reincarnated. Nobody is dying to get into heaven.Everybody wants to live for tomorrow because we all have things going on. And so what I'm trying to say with don't die is no matter what you believe, no matter what you want, every, you know, whatever you believe in an afterlife, everybody wants to live for tomorrow.So I'm trying to find common ground among all religions, among all nationalities, among all people. That is the one thing. So certainly I think community building is part of my DNA and also thinking about life and timescales on a very long timeframe is something I Learned as when I was young.]

楊軒：社團在你的抗衰計劃里扮演什么角色？你認為社團、集會，是快速大規模改變人類行為最有效的方式嗎？

Bryan Johnson：是的，我同意。

設想2035年——僅十年后，人工智能的發展會讓那個時代變得難以想象。那時人們可能會說："你能相信2025年的人類還在做增加死亡風險的事嗎？比如吸煙、喝酒或長期熬夜？"就像我們今天看待奴隸制一樣，這些行為在他們看來是荒謬的。

我們聚集在一起，其實是在宣告人類進入一個新時代。這是人類歷史上從未有過的階段。幾千年來，社會一直把財富、權力、地位視為成就，但現在我們要確立新的共識：生命本身就是最高價值。健康不是通往成功的工具，生命本身就是獎賞。

在"don't die"這個社區，我們正在灌輸這樣一個理念。而作為集體行動，能讓每個人對此更堅定。

[Yes, I do. For example, like if one way to crystallize this is if we imagine living in the year 2035, just 10 years from now. And I think that will be like an unimaginable state because AI will have moved so fast. I think at that time point, we might say, can you believe that humans in the year 2025 would actually do something to increase their risk of death. Like smoke a cigarette or drink alcohol or chronic me a myth bedtime. That is unthinkable to them, in the same way we think about modern things like slavery or other social and moral concepts, we've come up with a species. And so getting together as a group today is to say we're walking into a new era of being human. This is a brand new phase for human existence. That has not been the case for thousands and thousands of years. It is something entirely new. And the new social norms for doing. This is acknowledging existence is the highest virtue. Existence is the greatest prize. That is not the accumulation of wealth and power and status. Existence is the prize, and that it doesn't make sense to give up your health to become an entrepreneur and ruin your health to make money. That time period is over.So that's what we're trying to instill in the community of this new Don’t Die community, is health is of the highest importance, and doing this together as a community makes us all stronger.]

楊軒：你的抗衰計劃發展至今已形成了體系，比如你們有了社區、推出了保健品包，現在還要在北京開抗衰診所？能否談談你的商業路線圖？

Bryan Johnson：我們的首批長壽診所將落地北京和重慶。選址這兩個城市，是因為我的中國合作伙伴華鵬集團在醫療領域有深厚的專業積累——他們已建立完備的醫療設施和醫生團隊。下一步會擴展到中國更多城市及歐洲。

[Yeah, our first longevity clinics will be located in Beijing and Chongqing. We selected these cities because our Chinese partner has strong medical expertise, establish healthcare facilities and a team of doctors there. So we we explain we plan to expand into additional cities within both China and in Europe. Our Chinese partner for doing this is Hua Pond, and they're a publicly listed company in China. And they were founded by an entrepreneur who graduated from Peking University and has been active in the life sciences sector for over 30 years.So for, except for the gene therapy and a few other advanced therapies, the, The Blueprint Longevity Clinics will offer everything I use in my protocol, including a personal doctor that will guide the customer through the longevity protocol. And this will include things I do like regular measurements, adjustments to protocol based upon data and then measuring again. And so things I've done, for example, include the hyperbaric oxygen therapy. We've even done some certain kinds of stem cells. We've been exploring total plasma exchanges. So we'll be doing many of these things, plus longevity retreat.So we plan on bringing the full Brian Johnson protocol to China and allow people to try and achieve like mine, you know, some of the world's best biomarkers using the most robust science and the best therapies.]

楊軒：如果你手頭資金不是3億美元，而是30億美元，你會關注哪些與抗衰相關的領域？哪些機會在你看來特別值得投入？

Bryan Johnson：現在有很多研發中的新型療法。我與谷歌的創始人、Sam Altman和Jeff Bezos是朋友，他們正在推進的項目很棒，但責任和投入也很大。

隨著這些新療法逐步成熟，我們就能引入更多方案，當然，會符合中國法規。我們一定會站在最前沿，率先引入最佳新療法給大眾。這是我們的價值點。

[Yeah, I think that there's many new therapies that are being developed right now. Many of my, so I'm friends with the founders of Google and Sam Altman and Jeff Bezos, and I think what they're doing is great. And I think there's a lot of promise. And as these therapies mature, we will b offering more of these. So of course, we will be offering those which are in accordance with Chinese law. But we will certainly be on the frontiers of the therapies that can offer the very best benefits to people, that will be one of the value propositions we make.]